I need an assist
Dec
2007
I’m having a hard time deciding how to process the record set by Grinnell point guard David Arseneault. He was credited with 34 assists in the Pioneers’ 151-112 blowout of North Central (Minn.), a team barely in Division III and 1-5 against a schedule consisting primarily of bible schools and members of the UMAC, probably the worst conference in D-III.
If this were at all achieved within the normal framework of a basketball game, I’d be thrilled and you wouldn’t be reading this blog. But as you may have read on the front page, Arseneault played 38 minutes, perhaps the norm for a top-notch point guard but nowhere near normal for a System player. Here’s how much coach Dave Arseneault played his son through the first seven games: 17 minutes, 22, 19, 21, 20, 23, with 27 minutes in the most recent contest before Saturday.
Then there’s what was said afterward:
“Coming into the game we had a game plan looking to get John Grotberg a lot of points, and maybe me getting the assists record in the process while also getting Keith Chamberlain some points,” Arseneault explained. “Everything went well. At halftime we looked at the situation and said we’ll give it a further shot, and everything turned out.”
Is that what basketball is reduced to? Trying to get someone a record? Taking advantage of a bad team to get your name in the record books?
I’m not sure this is so much better than what Lincoln did to Ohio State-Marion last December, scoring 201 points.
At least those numbers are on the scoreboard, for everyone to see. Assists are a matter of rulebook interpretation, and trust me, awarding of assists vary widely.
“They were keeping track on the bench,” he said. “Sometimes when a group came on the court they’d tell me how close I was.”
And then he stayed on the floor after assist No. 27. And 28, etc. That’s what bothers me — we make a mockery of the record book, push a great performance by Robert James of Kean on March 11, 1989, onto history’s recycle bin.
March is a great time to set a record. You know it has to be in a meaningful performance, in a game that means everything.
Not a game where the goal is to run up as big a stat line as possible.
December 9th, 2007 at 10:30 pm
Jeez… I don’t know which quote irks me more… the first one that makes it sound that the record was the goal going in… or the second one that makes me realize he wasn’t being subbed for at any point and the team was keeping him up-to-date on the feat. You almost wish they were keeping the wrong count and the SID had a far smaller number in the stats.
I am all for a record when it happens through regular game action. But the simple fact that they knew they would kill the oposition and went into the game with the mind set of setting one record and maybe two… is sickening.
Granted, Lincoln probably didn’t go into the game thinking they would score 201 points or planned on it. Their record is sickening because once it was obvious they were killing OSM, they didn’t back down and continued to pour it on.
This is worse… it was coinsidered, thought about, planned, and then executed on the court. What is lost in this is the fact the team was planning on breaking records, but couldn’t keep the opposition from scoring 112 points. I know the “system” is not designed to take defense in mind… but this team allowed a very sub-par team to still score 112 points. Maybe Grinnel should have been thinking about playing better defense, then making sure their guard and coach’s son found a cheap way into the record books.
December 9th, 2007 at 11:57 pm
From my perspective, an SID for 10 years and counting now and also as someone who really enjoys numbers, stats and records I completely agree with Pat and D-Mac on this subject.
I have no rooting interest and have never ever seen Grinnell play although I have seen the “system” in action by other schools. So I know what it is all about.
I find this record breaking performance appalling for the following reasons:
#1 - It was premediated. They were quoted as game planning to attempt to break this and a maybe other records not only this game but in others during previous years. Since when in a TEAM game do coaches encourage players to play games with the goal of breaking an INDIVIDUAL record. The very thought of that makes me sick.
#2 - It was done at the expense of another team. They had zero care for the other team in this game. They were comfortably leading the game at the half (25 points) and continued to lead by 30+ points early in the second half. They went away from normal “system” habits by playing the better players more (IE - the 38 minutes by Arsenault) and had no care for acting with class when pounding a team by so many points. A classy program calls off the dogs at some point. This was never done from my view.
#3 - It disrespects so many things but most of all the record holder himself. As mentioned above the player who had the record likely did it in a game with lots of meaning (having been set in March) and probably in a game that was competitve for all 40 minutes or more (OT). I can tell a true story that once happened in a basketball game of the team I work for as an SID now. I had a player score 30+ points in a game falling one point shy of the single-game points record a few years ago. I knew sitting at the scorer’s table at the time that the record was one basket away and debated telling both her and the coach when she was removed from the game with about 8-10 minutes left of the situation. We were up 25+ points at the time. I instead chose not to say anything. Obviously she never went back into the game and the record was not broken. Afterwards before both player and coach were able to see a stat sheet, I asked them how many points they thought she had…they guessed wrongly and I said you were one shy of tying the single-game record. They both said I should have told them and she could have gone back in. I responded by saying if you broke the record that way and 10 years from now the same thing happened and I told the player and coach and that player broke the record in a blowout after being taken out for good and then being re-inserted into the game wouldn’t you be upset? Both the player and the coach agreed and I followed with my feeling that records should be broken in the general flow of the game. Anything else is not really breaking a record but padding stats for selfish reasons.
There are so many other reasons I don’t agree with this including five players on the team playing 1 or less minute. What a great time to get some younger players some experience or reward players who put in the time at practice with some extended game action. I guess that’s not as important as a star player breaking a record. Had I been this player I think I would have removed myself from the game and told a freshman who battles me in practice each day to take my place. He deserved to score one basket (maybe the only one of his career) much more than I would have deserved a record in a game like that.
Sorry for the long winded post…looking forward to reading some other thoughts.
December 10th, 2007 at 1:33 am
Hi Pat,
I won’t get into a long discussion with you or the other posters regards your comments on my son’s assist record. It is obvious that we think differently. I do have three points I would like to share with you and your readers:
1. We have set up game plans to break individual and team records for years. I can recall a game in the late 90’s when I was unhappy with our level of screening and told the players that we were going to see if we could break the record for ‘Most Individuals Making a Three-point Shot in a Single Game’. The plan was to rotate three groups of five and when you made a three-pointer, you became a screener in your group until everyone else in your group made one. We ended up setting an NCAA record by having 13 players connect, and, oh yeah, we beat a conference team on the road that was ahead of us in the standings, 103-73. The bonding that took place that night was fantastic. And our level of offensive execution was as good that night as it was the entire year- in large part because the players weren’t concentrating on ‘winning and losing’. Holding out records as a ‘carrot’ to players can be very motivating.
2. While I have set up a number of these game plans, I would never try to embarrass an opponent or opposing coach. As it relates to this past Saturday, anticipating that we may be the better team, I did confer with the North Central coach before the game. I will not tell you what was said, but I will tell you that the game was carried out in a sportsmanlike fashion. The two teams had nothing but positives to say to and about one another following the game.
3. Your listing my son’s minutes in previous games as proof that something sinister was going on is ridiculous. Like it or not, the game plan was to let two players remain at the offensive end of the court and see what happened. This did not require near as much energy as some of the other game plans we have implemented this year- thus they were able to play heavier minutes. I have done this in past years on a number of occasions.
Now I could probably go on and tell you why it isn’t as necessary for me to worry about developing players in these situations (I play more kids than any other coach in the country), or why it it silly to try to compare the performances of players when you didn’t see either game (You know, as evidenced by this past Saturday’s game, it is possible to have a great individual performance even when you are on the better team), but I think I’ll just stop here.
I’ll gladly accept attacks on my coaching style. But it really is unfair to put a negative spin on my son’s performance this past Saturday. He was just doing what he was told- and he did it quite well!
December 10th, 2007 at 1:51 am
Since when is using facts in public evidence ridiculous? Come on now.
I guess I disagree with your very first item to its core. If you need David Arseneault to have 34 assists in order to win, I’m all for it. But not like this. I never will be. I don’t see how beating up on a lesser team at home is comparable to beating a team ahead of you on the road, either. They’re both examples of breaking a record, sure, but that’s it.
December 10th, 2007 at 2:57 am
I wonder what the “gameplan” will be to do against Caltech in Grinnell’s next game. Maybe they can set the record for most shots taken behind half court. Imagine the team bonding that would take place while still respecting their opponent.
December 10th, 2007 at 9:07 am
Well, at least Coach Arseneau responded, something that I’m not sure many coaches under scrutiny on this site would have done. I look forward to seeing Grinnell play in St. Louis next year, and if nothing else, their style of play has gotten the school more publicity over the years than other schools with far better records have received.
December 10th, 2007 at 9:09 am
Interesting read…
Openly admitting that I’m more likely than most to give the benefit of the doubt here, perhaps it’s not quite as sinister as many are making it out to be.
As records go, an assist record seems less glory driven than most. His job was to get the ball to other players. He had to make game related decisions to get the ball to the open man, and the other players had to work to get open. Perhaps I’m enjoying an exercise in justification, but it seems less glory focused than an attempt to get a scoring record.
I think Coach A is right about the arguments on playing other players. These are a bit disingenuous. Grinnell has ten players averaging double digit minutes a game, three more who have more than 5 minutes a game, and 20 players that have seen game action. There isn’t a (non-’system’) team out there that can make that kind of claim, so saying the minutes should have gone to other players rings a touch hollow.
Grinnell has 7 newbies this year and they collectively spend and average of 54 minutes a game on the floor; that means that, on average, there is at least 1 first year on the floor at all times, and that for 14 minutes of every game (on average) their are two on the floor. So let’s not play that card here.
December 10th, 2007 at 9:27 am
Coach, I think you’re being a little oversensitive because it was your son out there.
I didn’t read anyone saying he should’ve stood up to his coach or anything. I think any of us who have watched a basketball game know the coach is in charge and makes the decision on something like that, especially after reading the quotes on how it was premeditated.
December 10th, 2007 at 10:15 am
Grinnell plays a contrived, bastardized form of basketball which lends itself to contrived, bastardized individual and team records, and David Arseneault’s phony single-game assist record is yet another in a continuing series. Given the chance, Grinnell will try to have Arseneault break his own record against some other poor over-matched cupcake of an opponent. Coach Arseneault offers the usual excuses, justifications and explanations for his actions, and then typically tries to deflect Pat’s well-placed criticism by playing the “Don’t Pick On My Son” card. 34 assists makes for neat propaganda on the Grinnell web site, and deluded Grinnell fans may love it, but most of the rest of us think it’s pretty pathetic.
December 10th, 2007 at 10:20 am
I think I have to side with Pat and co. on this issue. I really don’t understand the need to look over a schedule and target certain games that look like opportunities to break a record. I don’t see breaking records in a premeditated fashion as being within the spirit of the game. It just makes these records rather disingenuous to me…
December 10th, 2007 at 11:02 am
OxyBob:
I understand criticizing the way Arsenault set the record, but I don’t get the vitriol toward the system as a whole. “Contrived and bastardized?” All offensive systems are contrived by coaches and, if it works, I don’t see the problem with running the System. It’s a different game plan to be certain, but I don’t think Coach Arsenault should be criticized for creativity.
I appreciate Coach Arsenault offering his perspective on the record. And I understand the sensitivity toward his son. Taking sports out of the equation, it’s tough to turn that off as a father.
December 10th, 2007 at 12:25 pm
Gordon Mann: >>I understand criticizing the way Arsenault set the record, but I don’t get the vitriol toward the system as a whole.
December 10th, 2007 at 12:29 pm
“Like it or not, the game plan was to let two players remain at the offensive end of the court and see what happened.”
sounds like great basketball to me, coach - how can anyone say that “the System” isn’t contrived and bastardized? (/sarcasm)
December 10th, 2007 at 12:29 pm
Gordon Mann: “I understand criticizing the way Arsenault set the record, but I don’t get the vitriol toward the system as a whole.” I agree with John Wooden that basketball is a game of defense, finesse, maneuverability and beauty. The game Grinnell plays has none of that. If you like that style, well, there’s no accounting for taste. I had my fill of the System watching Gary Smith employ it at Redlands with no great success. For my money, I’ll take the philosophy of the Wizard of Westwood over Coach Arseneault any day.
December 10th, 2007 at 12:37 pm
Hello Again Pat,
It’s a slow morning, so I think I will offer your readers a little more insight into my coaching thoughts. At the very least, I hope it provokes some additional thought. I think what you have done for DIII basketball is awesome and am happy to contribute to the interest in your sight in some small way.
On Wednesday evening, driving home from our Monmouth game, my thoughts turned to what to do as a game-plan for North Central. As an aside, I can tell you that North Central was only on our schedule because so many teams in the Midwest do not want to play us. They were not on my first, second or third list of schools I wanted to play as the possibility for an imbalanced score is not something I look forward to. But, we drive 54 hours on a bus for our 8 road league games and after striking out with DIII teams within a 4 hour radius of Grinnell, I decided to take advantage that there was a school willing to come to our gym without any reciprocation.
One of the concerns I have when playing teams that we are supposedly better than is that we usually have a couple of players among the national leaders in particular statistical categories. This is not so much a reflection that these players are the best in their respective areas, and I realize our ‘System’ does skew individual and team statistics, but there are several reasons why it makes sense for us to have players achieve statistically:
1. When our players achieve statistically, they oftentimes get their confidence levels up to a point where they elevate their games.
2. The press has been generous with us through the years and statistical anomalies have given us attention we would not otherwise have gotten, which has assisted us in recruiting better student-athletes.
3. Fans seem to enjoy watching our team because we play so fast-paced and there is the possibility of seeing something done on the court that has never been done before. This makes for non-sterile environments.
Anyways, back to how to handle games in which we are better than our opponent. One of my concerns in these games is that our best players will not have the chance to be as statistically significant. This can easily happen if the playing time becomes even more evenly divided or if lessor players take the opportunity to be more aggressive simply because they can. So, as a rule, I usually map out a game plan which emphasizes that our best players are more aggressive in the first half. This allows me the flexibility to tinker with the second half so as not to be unsportsmanlike- without having our better players suffer statistically.
Such was the case with our North Central game plan. I wanted both my son and John Grotberg, who are both among the national leaders in assists and scoring, respectively, to come out of the gate quickly. After the first ten minutes we had four different possible game plans to choose from. They covered all the possible bases- ranging from what to do if we were way ahead, to what to do if we were behind, to what to do if either John or David were having an off-night.
Now I am the first to admit that the way I think is very different than how many of you think. Our ‘System’ is predicated on achieving numbers. What motivates some of the players who come to our program is the chance to accrue numbers. Sometimes I actually feel like a WWF promoter, searching out new material to keep our players and fans interest. But over the course of a season, I think it is critical to our team’s success to keep our players individually motivated and confident. And, with all due respect to some of the teams and individuals whose records we have broken, I think it is my responsibility to cater to my own group’s needs. So, through the years I have learned not to be bound by a want to set records, yet not afraid to go after them when they are achievable.
If some of you want to sit in your ‘ivory towers’ and snub your nose at what we do, that’s absolutely your business. From where I sit, this is not the ‘black and white’ issue soem of you make it out to be.
Hope you and your readers have a wonderful holiday season. And thanks again for all you do for Division III basketball.
David Arseneault
Men’s Basketball Coach
Grinnell College
December 10th, 2007 at 1:12 pm
So correct me if I am wrong. You are saying that individual stats are more important than the team goals. Doesn’t nearly every team in the country have a game or two or three against an inferior team. It happens. We all play weak teams here and there. So what if a player doesn’t reach his scoring average in one game. Is that really a big deal especially if your team wins?
After reading your second post I am even more sick that you value individual performances and stats and keeping your players motivated for individual goals and numbers rather then meeting team goals.
I may be reading incorrectly but do team goals even make the second or third page of your goals for a season.
I just don’t get it. You are coaching a team sport with the ultimate goal of a team winning a conference championship and maybe a national championship someday and your creating game plans for a star player to not lower his scoring average or other stat average in one lousy game.
Are these valuable lessons to be teaching young people?
I can now check off one coach I will definitely not allow my son to ever play for if he is good enough for the college ranks.
December 10th, 2007 at 1:24 pm
i’d like to present a counter to a couple of your points - i hope you don’t take these comments personally:
“When our players achieve statistically, they oftentimes get their confidence levels up to a point where they elevate their games.” - could this same affect have been achieved without asking your pg to play almost double his season average in minutes against an obviously inferior team (so inferior that you beat them soundly playing 3 on 5)? could he have maintained his season apg average (or maybe even improved on it slightly) without playing 38 minutes? what type of affect do you think it might have had on your 2nd and 3rd pg’s had they been able to play more minutes than they normally do and “achieve statistically”…could that elevate their confidence levels and their game?
i don’t think anyone has a problem with players achieving statistical milestones, but when it’s done like this it just doesn’t seem as legit
“One of my concerns in these games is that our best players will not have the chance to be as statistically significant.” - isn’t this counter to the team nature of basketball? i’ve always been under the impression that the only statistic that mattered was winning %…
“What motivates some of the players who come to our program is the chance to accrue numbers. ” - do they want to accrue numbers at all cost, though? wouldn’t the opportunity to see some of their teammates accrue numbers be equally rewarding?
“Sometimes I actually feel like a WWF promoter, searching out new material to keep our players and fans interest.” - why not recruit players who are interested in playing basketball because, well, it’s basketball and it’s what they love to do - i don’t know any of your players, but i know they got admitted at grinnell, so they’re bright…i don’t think you’re giving them enough credit if you feel that you have to keep them interested by coming up with little games within the game against a team that you could beat handily with your 2nd and 3rd teamers (as evidenced by a 39 point victory in a game where you were playing 3 on 5, from the sound of things)
coach, i respect your right to do whatever you want in the games you schedule and motivate your team as you see fit…i’ve never coached a day of basketball, so i’m sure you’re in a much better place to make these judgements than i - i also hope you understand it when people debate the merits of the records your players accrue and the sportsmanship shown in the pursuit of these records, especially in cases like this (or the ‘most individuals making a three-point shot game’) when the record itself seems to be much more important than the result of the game
December 10th, 2007 at 1:44 pm
The assist record 100% depends on other players..he can make a great pass every time, if they dont hit, no assist.
That being said, it is what it is…the system is there, and it inflates stats…and Coach obviously attracts kids who want to be a part of that..someone made a coment about attracting different types of players…is there another style of play that can comfortably play 16-20 kids a night?
I’d be upset if there was a plan to have a kid score xx amount of points in a game, in a blowout.
I am a D3 assistant coach on the woman’s side..we had an all american last year who played 17-20 minutes in 4-5 games because they were blowouts and we knew they were going to be blowouts..that is sportmanship.
December 10th, 2007 at 1:53 pm
Coach Arsenault says:
“As an aside, I can tell you that North Central was only on our schedule because so many teams in the Midwest do not want to play us. They were not on my first, second or third list of schools I wanted to play as the possibility for an imbalanced score is not something I look forward to. But, we drive 54 hours on a bus for our 8 road league games and after striking out with DIII teams within a 4 hour radius of Grinnell, I decided to take advantage that there was a school willing to come to our gym without any reciprocation.”
emphasis added
Sitting here in my “ivory tower,” I think this is a very telling comment.
December 10th, 2007 at 2:36 pm
Ah well, I can see I wasn’t successful convincing some of you to embrace my way of thinking. May have even lost a recruit. At least I tried. Good luck to all.
December 10th, 2007 at 3:14 pm
I have leaned both ways on this situation. I do not think that Grinnell is unsportsmanlike at all. They had a chance to beat Monmouth by a hundred last Wednesday but instead went into a conservative offense and kept the score close. The score could have been whatever the Pioneers wanted it. Then some of the Monmouth players had the audacity to be mad at the end of the game when John Grotberg shot a 3 pointer at the buzzer saying “they were running up the score.”
The thing I dont like about this record is that I feel like I could do it to if my coach said that he wanted to get me this record before the game. I feel like I am an average D-III player who doesnt deserve to hold such a honorable record because I am just not the caliber of player that it takes to be to hold a record.
That being said I have all the respect in the world for Grinnell as well as Dave Jr. I am glad he didnt get hurt because I know if someone was doing that to my team, I would look for a spot to take a shot at him (hard screens, etc). Nothing injury threatening, but enough to ring his bell and let the coach rethink his strategy. If that makes me a dirty player than so be it but I would would not allow myself and my teammates be embarassed like that. (See: Tom Brady throwing the ball in the 4th quarter in every game this year.)
I cant wait to go and play in Darby for the final time of my career.
December 10th, 2007 at 3:25 pm
Well coach, no one can say you didn’t stand up to the criticism.
December 10th, 2007 at 3:31 pm
Indeed, and I do appreciate you weighing in.
December 10th, 2007 at 3:35 pm
“Fans seem to enjoy watching our team because we play so fast-paced and there is the possibility of seeing something done on the court that has never been done before. This makes for non-sterile environments.”
Yeah… Fans like the Harlem Globetrotters too!
YAWN… Let me know when Coach A gets his team to the final 4. I’ll go check out system ball then.
December 10th, 2007 at 4:18 pm
“YAWN… Let me know when Coach A gets his team to the final 4. I’ll go check out system ball then.”
So only 4 teams a year are worth watching? I figured since you took the time to register and post on here that you would be more of a basketball fan then that. Go back to your shell.
December 10th, 2007 at 4:29 pm
Yeah, let’s not have this deteriorate to a system bashing thread. It’s been done and over done on D3Hoops. Keep it on topic, folks.
December 10th, 2007 at 4:48 pm
When was the last time that happened in the Daily Dose, 86? I must’ve missed it if it was recent.
December 10th, 2007 at 5:00 pm
Coach A - I will say I am impressed and respect the fact you took the time to come on this blog and submit your opinion and position in this debate. You also did it with class, respect, and understanding of those who may disagree with you.
I took the time to read your side of this and then waited to reply while it sank in. While you seem to have your reasons, I simply find some of your statements sad about what the priorities are at Grinnel.
As a former collegiate athlete who has also coached, I can appreciate finding ways to motivate a team and finding goals for them on game-by-game and season basis. However, I still disagree with a couple of your tactics.
One of which was the fact you actually went to the opposing coach before the game and seemingly told him your plan! I’m sorry, but if I had been that coach - who was willing to come to your school when apparently no one else would - I would have been infuriated! Not only are you openly telling me you don’t think my team has a chance, you then decide to rub the fact in my face by saying your team plans to go for a couple of individual records during the game. Then, to add insult to injury, you feel it necessary to keep two guys on the offensive side of the court (Alex, I will take “Women’s rules in the 50’s” for 100, please!) and only put three guys on defense.
If I was the coach, or many that I know, you might have been in for some rough treatment. I don’t believe in dirty play, either, but those screens might have been harder and I might have just left two guys back on defense to keep your two “record-orientated” players from touching the ball. Does that sound like fun?
And I am a FIRM believer in team orientated goals - especially in a TEAM sport. And I would have been very ticked-off if a coach had ever told me that despite our team work and goals, they would be put to the side so that one guy on the team could break a record - probably unattainable in the normal run of a game and without me sacraficing what I and the team does normally to achieve success.
I would be thrilled for a teammate if he or she was able to set a record during a game… but I think the “fun” of it is removed if I knew that was the goal going in.
I also want anyone to know who is playing my team that they will be treated sportsmanlike and with class. Not wondering if my team will be classless and only care about abusing my team for personal reasons.
December 10th, 2007 at 5:03 pm
Hey, D-Mac — it’s Iowa. They played those girls basketball rules there into the 1980s!
December 10th, 2007 at 5:07 pm
If the system is bastardized than really all of basketball is bastardized. Sports like everything else change as time goes on. It is not the same game as Dr. Naismith created. It is not the same game that George Mikan played (added that bastardized shot clock). Not the same game Red Auerbach coached. Not the same game John Wooden coached. The game has evolved and Coach A has a system that works for his program.
Nobody like the shotgun when Landry started to use it, now everyone uses it on all levels.
December 10th, 2007 at 5:23 pm
“So only 4 teams a year are worth watching? I figured since you took the time to register and post on here that you would be more of a basketball fan then that. Go back to your shell.”
You missed the point!
I think Coach A is running an ego driven sideshow. I’ll continue to follow good BASKETBALL all season elsewhere.
If/when he gets his team to do more than win his league 3 times in 11 years, and take them to the next level, maybe then I’ll go watch…
December 10th, 2007 at 7:41 pm
Systemfan86,
Actually distributed minutes is much more prevalent than you think.
Mississippi College, a “decidedly non-system team”, had 11 players with double digit minutes (highest were 20.9 and 20.1) plus 2 more players getting 6.9 and 6.4 among the 13 players who played at least 29 games in the 2006 season.
In 2007, Miss College had 9 players with > 10 minutes, and a 10th with 9.9 minutes. In 2008, Miss College has begun with 10 players getting 9.8 to 24.8 minutes.
In 2007, McMurry (ASC-West co-champ) had 13 players getting 8.2 minutes or more per game. In 2006, McMurry (ASC-West Tri-champ) had ten players getting 11.7 and 29.9 minutes (The 11.7 min/game guy was the three-point gunner off the bench and averaged 8.2 points per game.)
In 2007, a traditional post-up team such as UMHB (ASC-West Co-champ) had 8 players with double-digit minutes and 3 more with > 8 mpg.
That is just one conference. I think that the goal of most coaches with good teams is to go 10-12 deep on the team. You never who will catch fire that night, and hot hands are valuable.
December 10th, 2007 at 8:40 pm
Blaise4 says, “They had a chance to beat Monmouth by a hundred last Wednesday but instead went into a conservative offense and kept the score close. The score could have been whatever the Pioneers wanted it. Then some of the Monmouth players had the audacity to be mad at the end of the game [b]when John Grotberg shot a 3 pointer at the buzzer saying[/b] “they were running up the score.” ”
Isn’t the sportsman-like thing to do when your team is comfortably ahead at the end of the game with the shot clock off to just hold the ball and allow the clock to run out??? Maybe I could understand if the guy taking the shot at the end of the game was the last kid on the bench. But, even that’s stretching it. But the fact that it was Grinnell’s leading scorer??? I would have been a little pissed off too if I were Monmouth. I don’t care if Grinnell did them a favor by not running it up on them by more than they actually did. The fact is, Grotberg should have done the sportsman-like thing and hold the ball. But, instead, as we have already been made well aware by Coach Arsenault, it seems that padding stats in any way, shape or form seems to outweigh winning with class?!
Also, good point David about the scheduling issues Grinnell has. I’m sure incidents like Grotberg hoisting a 3 at the buzzer of a 20 point game has nothing to do with why no one wants to play Grinnell?!
December 10th, 2007 at 9:25 pm
obviously the grinnell administration is fully behind coach arseneau, as well - the story, in all it’s pre-determined glory, takes up about 80% of the college home page…
December 10th, 2007 at 10:34 pm
Regarding minutes, I remember one game where Joe Haklin was coaching Kalamazoo and he had all 14 players he brought to Wabash in the game in the first 10 minutes, and he definitely didn’t run ‘the system’.
December 10th, 2007 at 11:25 pm
Coach A- Don’t let any of these hatters get to you. Your running a hell of a system over there and are getting W’s in the process. Everyone has to give credit were credit is due, to the players. Grotberg and Dave Jr. are excellent athletes who would thrive in any system, even the big boy Chamerblain has some serious talent. (Not to mention ‘Ya Boy’ Joe Fox) I’m looking forward to watching your guys play in the near future.
PS- Coleman should catch a game as well.
December 10th, 2007 at 11:54 pm
Hatters? I’ve been known to be angry but I’m not mad. Not that way anyway.
December 11th, 2007 at 12:11 am
Mike - Pat has caught a game, as have I, and many others in D3… hard not to when they were live on ESPN two seasons ago!
Though Grinnel certainly seems to be a better team now!
December 11th, 2007 at 12:25 am
As someone who has actually seen North Central play this year and studied the box score I thought it worthwhile to point out that North Central was winning after the first 10 minutes of play. This seems to be a bit of a down year for North Central, but they still get out there and compete with pride. They definitely did not have the sort of depth that Grinnell has in the end and it hurt them.
The first game of the year for North Central resulted in a 95-49 loss to Northwestern, and trust me, it could have been worse. They’ve made significant strides and have shown great improvement. Don’t spend time pitying them. They can play ball. –by the way, I disagree heartily with Pat’s proclamation about the UMAC being the worst d3 conference in the nation-
all that said–players win the games- not systems or coaches. Grinnell has been able to attract a lot of talented players over the years and were able to use their superior depth well to beat North Central. If these talented players for Grinnell played under a different system that emphasizes team goals and defense a bit more, they might be more successful.
This isn’t a barry bonds record-breaking steriods scandal. If it’s within the rules, Grinnell and the Arsenaults should be congratulated for breaking records.
December 11th, 2007 at 12:35 am
I said “probably” the worst.
December 11th, 2007 at 12:51 am
The UMAC is 4-5 versus the MIAC so far this season with 5 of the games and 3 of the wins coming by way of teams picked to finish 4th or lower in the UMAC. My boys over at Northwestern are 10-0 against MIAC teams in the past couple of years. Look out world. Here comes the UMAC.
Maybe if North Central were to start a football program in the next couple years they might get in to one of the best conferences in the nation soon.
December 11th, 2007 at 12:55 am
I don’t think the WIAC is looking for more teams.
December 11th, 2007 at 9:37 am
What a fascinating rant of self-proclaimed experts on basketball ethics. The record set was for ASSISTS!! This is the one category in which a players UNSELFISHNESS and DEDICATION TO HIS TEAMMATES is recorded. Grinnell did NOT run up the score. The score 151-112 is a difference of 39 points, in the setting of mid-hundreds, a point ratio of 0.74. NCUM played more basketball, and accomplished more game experience than they had all year. Where was the Pat Coleman outrage when UW-Platteville beat Beloit 75-23 on Nov 16, a 52 point difference and a point ratio of 0.31? Nowhere!! Instead from him we get special, personal blogs of selected players he is pushing on his website. Where is the ethics of that??
Coach A has created an entire form of the game now known as “The System”. He is an innovator, a maverick. Others through history have also paid a price for exploring new realms of possibilities and thwarting the status quo. Christopher Columbus was put into prison by the King of Spain, because Ferdinand was displeased. Pat Coleman, take off your self-ascribed crown. You make a poor King.
December 11th, 2007 at 9:52 am
I have read these posts with great interest, and it is intriguing to see folks saying that their vision for basketball is the only true one. That kind of thinking would set the game back years as someone pointed out. Coach Arsenault was great to come on here and give his reasons for what he does. Last year, I heard an interview with Coach A regarding the System, and he said that the reason that he created it was to give his players something to be excited about after the game. Recruiting to Grinnell will always be a challenge due to its location and academic standards. Trust me on that one.
The idea of taking a huge risk as a coach to do something different so that his players could have some fun is almost unheard of in this day and age. The idea that people won’t play Grinnell because they are unsportsmanlike is just not true. Their style is so different that you can’t prepare for it, and the game that you play immediately after you play them becomes a tough one to prep for. That is a compliment to the program, not a disrespect of the people in it.
I have met both father and son Arsenault in my travels and they are polite and thoughtful people. The System is not evil and the USA will not collapse because of it. It is a choice that a coach has made to play in a certain way. Before the shot clock, you had a lot of coaches running a slow-down boring game, and no one accused them of killing the game. This is a way of playing that is not for everyone but that doesn’t make it “not basketball.”
It really is sad that the word “vitriol” showed up on a Division III basketball discussion.
December 11th, 2007 at 10:20 am
hoopdreams: I don’t recall Platteville trumpeting a record set in that game or playing a player 38 minutes solely to achieve a personal record. Spare us the spin and join us in what we’re really discussing.
http://www.uwplatt.edu/athletics/basketball/mens/0708/stats/2008m-1.htm
Show me who played 38 minutes. Nobody in that game you throw out there did anything like playing 38 minutes, racking up 34 assists or scoring a third of his team’s points.
December 11th, 2007 at 11:17 am
As a former player who played against Grinnell’s system, I think you must understand “the system”. It is undeniable for players to have career nights whether for Grinnell or against them. We had talked before our games with them about players on our teams scoring 30, 40, 50+ points. It goes both ways.
Also, let me tell you that against “the system” no lead is ever secure. Grinnell must live and die by the 3. You are not out of the game by being down 20-30 points at half. We did it and ended up coming back.
We had a philosophy against Grinnell and we did not abandon it. I will not reveal what it is, but lets just say that by looking at North Central’s box score, they did not have the right approach.
Coach A, your system is unique and difficult to prepare for. As different and unusual as it is, it can be very fun to watch and play. We had to abandon all our concepts to adjust to your style. Our scout team in practice loved preparing for your game though. haha. I think that those that are posting negatively about this is basically because it was your son. I dont think it would have been a issue if it was Steve Wood, but thats my opinion. As I do every year, I plan on coming to see your games when you come into the area.
December 11th, 2007 at 11:21 am
I can’t speak for commenters but I would have written the same post if it were Steve Wood or Ken Heiser or whomever.
December 11th, 2007 at 11:25 am
Pat: How regal, to let us know that you are keeping track of ALL playing time around the league. Coaches clearly need to check your website for their moral guidance. “Would Pat approve of this?” I can hear the coaches trembling. For all you know, the coach of NCUM wanted to play Grinnell so his players could improve on their personal scoring averages!! That is the general trend in system basketball for opponents. What?? You mean they may NOT be a victim?? Oh…you didn’t consider that?? Here is another one to ponder: it just could be that the Grinnell TEAM considers the personal record of assists as a TEAM accomplishment. Wow, more reality to ruffle your feathers. YOU want basketball to proceed by YOUR vision, and not anyone else’s. It is so difficult to be the King. Your subjects just don’t cooperate like they used to.
December 11th, 2007 at 11:48 am
HoopDreams you clearly miss the point here. Perhaps you should kill the personal attacks on Pat and concentrate on the posts instead.
Here’s a hint to people. Using more than one question mark or exclamation point, typing in all caps, just makes you look psychotic. It doesn’t help the conversation.
So when you’re done on your high horse come join the real topic. Is it right to make a mockery of the record book at the expense of a poor team? Is the 34 assist count even accurate? I wonder if the NCAA has reviewed the film.
December 11th, 2007 at 11:57 am
diego says: “I think that those that are posting negatively about this is basically because it was your son.”
The fact that it was Arsenault’s son has absolutley NOTING to do with why I feel the way I do. It’s the fact that Arsenault played his starting PG 38 minutes (almost double that starting PG’s average minutes per game) for the sole purpose of breaking a record! And in a game that was out of reach to say the least.
As others have touched on in here and elswhere thoughout the pages of Posting Up, maybe if this feat would have been accomplished in a game that may have been more competive or had more meaning like a conference game with 1st place on the line or an NCAA tournament game, I doubt this would have been an issue. It is for this reason that I look at most records that have Grinnell attached to them in the NCAA record books with a grain of salt! This is because they were more than likely also pre-meditated against a vastly inferior team!
One question I have is why not play the kid the full 40 minutes? Maybe he could have cracked the 40 assist mark and then he could say that he averaged an assist/minute?!
December 11th, 2007 at 12:09 pm
I think that some of you are stretching a little bit to find something to argue about. You sound like guys on ESPN about Bill Belichick running up the score on teams. Why is it Grinnells fault for competing for 40 minutes? You should be questioning North Central for not putting the starting PG on his butt or fouling him.
You are getting on a coach about having a kid pass the ball to his teammates. Records are made to be broken and Grinnell’s system breaks records. Deal with it. Plus, if you havent seen Grinnell play before then your views are skewed a bit to start. Once again, these are my opinions.
December 11th, 2007 at 12:37 pm
It’s not Grinnell’s fault for competing for 40 minutes. It’s their fault for leaving the starting point guard out there for 38. Why is this so hard to understand?
December 11th, 2007 at 12:58 pm
I dont completely understand why they left their starting PG in for 38 minutes either? What if he had gotten hurt? But when you look at Grinnell’s system, what makes sense about it? The only thing I see is that they want to score alot of points, which means opportunities for assists.
December 11th, 2007 at 1:12 pm
deigo - records were made to be broken, but in the spirit of the game. Do you think the spirit of the game or any competition was being considered when the plan going IN to the game was to break the record. It has already been stated that the record was considered (along with a scoring record), because Grinnel knew they were going to kill the opposing team. I’m sorry, but sportsmanship is a very high standard in the NCAA and many, if not all, conferences - thus the sportsmanship statements read before games and in programs - and to decide to take advantage of a weaker opponent for the sense of personal gain and glory, is anything BUT sportsmanlike.
And since when is it North Central’s responsibility to take out the point guard to avoid the stat from happening? That role should be on the COACH of the team, who actually decided to make the run for the stat instead. I am sure it wasn’t easy for NC to hit him on a hard screen or foul him… since he was cherry picking on the offensive side of the court with his teammate… with the soul intention of scoring. From what Coach A had to say, they weren’t part of the defense during the game. It isn’t that hard to throw a pass to a teammate, when both of you are probably WIDE open.
Heck, we all know why North Central scored 112 points, they were playing 5-on-3 basketball!
I HAVE seen Grinnel play and I have seen the “system” in action on other occasions. I think it is a fascinating game plan that can truely be both exciting and intense. It certainly can through a team off who has to play against it. And sure, teams can come back from 20 or so down, but it hardly happens. What Grinnel did on Saturday was take advantage of a weaker team and in my opinion embarrass the Grinnel name and the opponent.
By the way, the “system” has very little, if any, success in the NCAA Tournament. While it is great and you get your wins, I wouldn’t call it a successful game plan. That being said, most coaches - like Gary Smith, formerly at Redlands, admits he ran it because he wanted to get everyone involved and interested. The difference is, I bet Smith never considered taking advantage of a weaker opponent… just to achieve records for the team or a player.
HoopDreams - where were you when Lincoln put 201 points up in one game against a team that simply wasn’t any competition? You may think Pat is a poor king - though he has every right to question anything he wants, as do I and anyone else - but you make for a poor jester! And could you stick to the point of discussion?!
December 11th, 2007 at 1:16 pm
This “controversy” is clearly trumped up by Pat Coleman to increase the “hit rate” on his website. That way he can report higher data to his advertisers, and raise the rent. In the meantime, it is all at the expense of hard working student athletes. The league owes much to Coach A and his vision. He brought D3 basketball to ESPN. Others like Pat Coleman just report on it and skew issues for their own agenda. Ethics….different viewpoints. ??!!**&&
December 11th, 2007 at 1:21 pm
Yawn. A few extra comments on the blog is a drop in the bucket compared to 18,000,000 page views on the front.
If you can’t make a point on the actual topic at hand then that’s your last comment here.
December 11th, 2007 at 1:34 pm
Jeez HoopDreams… you have got to be kidding! Just for the record, if Pat and his “crew” (which I am a proud member of) hadn’t designed and ran this site, I am pretty sure you wouldn’t have a place to even chat about it - though it appears you haven’t started chatting about the topic at hand and you aren’t about to.
And Pat Coleman has been a guest of ESPN on air MANY times to chat about Division III sports. And while Coach A was certainly involved in the game - he isn’t the one, or the only one, that brought that game to ESPN. I am pretty sure my memory serves that there were many others involved in ESPN covering a game and which one they chose.
I agree with Pat, please stick to the topic or don’t bother even replying - PLEASE!
December 11th, 2007 at 1:55 pm
Great to hear back. The topic at hand is should a player be allowed to play 38 minutes with a goal of winning a game and setting an assist record. Clearly it depends on your point of view. For example, the Yankees played Lou Gehrig at times when he was sick and injured so he could set the consecutive games played record. He put it very far out of reach for his era. It was only a neurological disease, now named for him, that took him out of the lineup. Did the Yankees need him to beat weaker teams? No. Did he need to play in every game? No. His mark was a personal record which reflects on him and the Yankees. When you think of the Yankees, you think of Gehrig, and vice-versa. What matters in coming to an opinion or viewpoint on the assist record in basketball is, to a large extent, your previous experiences and comparison points. Keep Lou Gehrig in your mind. And don’t forget to vote in what now has been made a front page ballot item for d3hoops.com.
December 11th, 2007 at 2:09 pm
This conversation seems to have devolved into a(nother) discussion of the merits and demerits of “The System.” But what most everyone seems to be overlooking is that this record was achieved precisely because the System was not employed (or at least altered to benefit Mr. Arsenault fils). The System produces ridiculous numbers in most every category, offensive and defensive, and while many may take these numbers with a shrug of the shoulders, there is rarely any outrage and cries of unsportsmanlike behavior are seldom heard. But this situation is quite different. As Pat explains in the OP, Arsenault played many more minutes than he would have in a “normal” System game, and it is clear from the coach’s comments that the reason for this is precisely so this record could be achieved. Add to this the shocking revelation that, on the coach’s instruction, Arsenault and a designated scorer were planted on the offensive end for the entire game, evidently with no role other than to produce (presumably uncontested) assists, and you get an extremely disquieting result. If this record had been achieved in the course of a “normal” System game, I doubt whether anyone would have been disturbed. But when the primary goal of a gameplan is to produce statistical glory for an individual player, as appears was the case here, it is very disturbing.
December 11th, 2007 at 2:26 pm
HoopDreams. Great example — if the 1920s Yankees were predicated around a player playing 4-1/2 innings. Otherwise still irrelevant.
December 11th, 2007 at 2:30 pm
Hoops - before reading everything else and being away from this discussion for some time… comparing PRO sports to amateur sports won’t work. Pros are payed to play… and in a baseball season, a weaker team can beat a stronger team in a three-game series.
Plus the fact, Gehrig and the rest are PROs. Tell the owner of the team and the fans who paid those salaries that you sat a player because you felt like it or the other team was weaker - which actually DOES happen! (Check the NFL late in seasons!)
This is amateur sports. This is D3 basketball. There are no checks and no payments for playing. Your comparison is weak.
And David - interesting point about how the system was abandoned for a higher goal!
December 11th, 2007 at 2:43 pm
And Grinnell has abandoned the system before for a higher goal…..protecting the integrity of another team.
December 11th, 2007 at 3:31 pm
If you read the communication from “arseneau”, he says with regard to the minutes played and the court configuration “I have done this in past years on a number of occasions.” So it is well within his normal range of game plans. Do coaches need to file established, previously used, game plans on this site to avoid the wrath of “I need an assist” and its author? Because the crux of the argument is “did Grinnell do this before”? The coach says yes, a number of times. Does the d3hoops.com leadership not trust that?
If the minutes were the same, but the assist record not broken against NCUM, then would we have an “I need a minute.” blog? Doubtful, though the minute argument would still be available. Interesting about minutes. The last 15 minutes of the Grinnell-Monmouth game, “arseneau” shifted his game plan to a slow-down offense which produced 16 points according to the play-by-play record. That was done to protect the new Monmouth coach from a lopsided loss. The final score was 100-80, a 0.80 point ratio, as compared to the 0.74 point ratio in the NCUM game. Essentially identical outcomes. So can we have a blog about this extreme variation of Grinnell strategy? It seem only fair. How about “Thanks for the courtesy”.
December 11th, 2007 at 4:21 pm
I wonder what New Jersey City’s Dana John thinks about all of this?
December 11th, 2007 at 4:22 pm
Did they do it before? Apparently so.
Does that make it right? No, not in my mind and apparently the minds of many others.
It’s not about playing minutes, Dreams, it’s about going out of your way to intentionally break a record in a premeditated fashion.
Thanks for almost discussing the topic. I feel like you’re beginning to actually read what’s taking place here.
December 11th, 2007 at 4:29 pm
Indeed, sac, WWDJD?
December 11th, 2007 at 4:37 pm
PC: Apparently you are the one making progress, since your “I need an assist” diatribe is predicated on minutes played with a listing from previous games. Now you say “It’s not about playing minutes”. That is a complete reversal, so maybe you are sensing something about reality. As for premeditated breaking of a record, the O’s got a lot of mileage for Cal Ripken Jr breaking Lou Gehrig’s record. All premeditated, hyped, marketed, and also revered. Whether it is PRO or amateur, the concept of premeditation is accurate for both of these records. And Ripken had his detractors, (he’s too old, let the rookies play, this is just for a record, etc) so you can feel some comradeship there. But for Grinnell, this record will stand regardless of your objections, as does the record for Ripken. Grinnell is an outstanding institution, and will survive your efforts otherwise.
December 11th, 2007 at 4:50 pm
It’s about playing minutes TO BREAK A RECORD.
You’re done here. You are just rabble rousing and spinning away from the actual topic.
I apologize to the rest of the commenters for not shutting this down earlier.
December 11th, 2007 at 4:56 pm
Hoop: “Do coaches need to file established, previously used, game plans…” Every game that his team plays is a way to file an established game plan. When coaches go away from the “norm” whether it be the “System” or what ever the other programs in the country do, win or lose it gets noticed. If you lose, the fans, administration, boosters, etc. ask questions as to why??? When you win, they ask why you changed and if more is coming. If the change is for personal goals, most of us in “Real Basketball” world question that since it is a team sport. I respect his decision to present his side of the story, but we are still allowed to question it. You seem awfully personal about this either cause you’re part of the team, coach, parent, or a really really die hard Grinnell fan and I think you need to respect what everyone else including Pat is saying and where we are coming from.
I think if the minutes were the same and the record was broken, then we most certainly wouldn’t be talking about it. To say that the last 15 minutes he shifted his game plan to prevent the new Monmouth coach from a lopsided loss, I think is not exactly correct. Maybe it had to do with the fact that Grinnell was slipping a bit in the second half and not shooting as well. To avoid the loss to a winless team, he made an adjustment to be more methodical. I was not there and am basically going by the box score. If he was so gracious towards the new coach at Monmouth, why be greedy in personal victories against NCUM and shoot 46 more FG’s and 33 more 3’s? I think that would be a shot ratio of like 1.55 from normal for total FG’s and staggering 2.61 for 3’s. This is ridiculous and IMO…not basketball.
December 11th, 2007 at 4:56 pm
To continue the conversation: I got word from a North Central player that like 32 of the 34 assists came on basically hand-offs. Also, heard NCU was up by 10 with 13 minutes left. Grinnell went on like a 30-0 run.
December 11th, 2007 at 5:01 pm
The box score shows that was a seven-point lead with 16:18 left in the first half. NCU led by six as late as 13:59 in the first half and never led in the second.
http://www.grinnell.edu/athletics/mbasketball/includes/128men.htm
December 11th, 2007 at 5:16 pm
“That being said, most coaches - like Gary Smith, formerly at Redlands, admits he ran it because he wanted to get everyone involved and interested. The difference is, I bet Smith never considered taking advantage of a weaker opponent… just to achieve records for the team or a player.” dmac
Ummm, guess where Coach Smith is serving as an assistant this year? Yup, he got to see the record first hand from the Grinnell bench. http://www.grinnell.edu/athletics/mbasketball/staff/
Let me take another angle at this. Davey A broke the record approximately midway through the second half. If they had pulled himback at this point, would the outcry be the same? I’m guessing not. But would the arguments be different? He would have broken the record with a concerted effort to do that, he would have played more minutes than normal, and his team was winning big.
I guess I’m asking, “Is the issue with the 7 extra assists in the extra minutes?” Just another way to look at it. I know what the “Grinnell’s game is an abomination” folks are going to say, but I’d be interested in your answer Pat.
December 11th, 2007 at 5:19 pm
Hoop - you need to take the time and read all the posts. Pat is NOT the only person who has brought up the minutes stat. And every poster has used it to prove that the normal game plan was abandoned and the intent for the entire game (even after the record was broken) was to break the record.
The crust of this is… instead of letting a record happen in a normal play of a game, a team decided before hand (and probably practiced) to put aside everything else and help a teammate break a record.
This isn’t like a player going for a career point mark, which takes plenty of games and will happen at some point in time (if they are close). This isn’t something that was achievable easily during game action. This was an effort to break a record that while, sure, needed teammates to hit shots, but was at such a level needed to achieve… a complete change to the game-plan and execution was needed.
What’s worse, it was decided because the opponent was considered inferior and according to Coach A, he needed to find some way to motivate his team (heck, he even said he tries to find ways to get fans to games - I certainly hope there wasn’t a promise to fans of this gameplan). Coach A also admitted to talking to the opposition’s coach prior to the game, in my opinion further showing a lack of respect and sportsmanship towards the opponent.
I repeat my point that the NCAA and many - if not all - conferences consider sportsmanship to be one of the most important aspects of collegiate sports. This is very unsportsmanlike.
I repeat my point that this is amateur sports and most importantly, Division III athletics. This division is all about student-athletics… with the “student” properly the first part of that description. What exactly did the students on Grinnel’s team learn? And what exactly did the students for North Central learn?
As for your reference to Cal Ripken and pros… just stop. I have covered the Orioles and Cal Ripken with my job for a number of years. The flaw in your arguement is the simple fact, there was no other player better than Cal playing for the O’s or in the minors, even in his older years, to replace him. If you can think of one, try me. I promise you won’t.
Secondly, in the pros… you are paid to play. The higher the contract, the better you are considered, and thus the better chance you will play. Cal is a Hall of Famer without “The Streak”.
What you are trying to compare, by the way, is a career long goal and there were MANY factors along the way that allowed that record to happen. There wasn’t ONE game where the O’s said, hey… how about we twist the way we play so that Ripken can get as many at bats as possible just to break the hits record in the game (a bad game by the Braves allowed that). There was also no point in time where they thought they were going to be playing an inferior team - because after all… it’s the pros and they are all highly qualified.
Hoops… drop the pros example. Of all places, D3 sports shouldn’t be compared since almost all of these athletes won’t play in the pros… and because of the true essence of Division III.
One final thought… since when are individual stats more important than how the team does on the whole. Coach A says he puts in goals to make sure players kept their averages high. Are you kidding me?! Apparently Grinnel - even when successful - would rather make sure the guys achieve their individual goals, then give the program and the athletic department a chance at conference or national glory.
December 11th, 2007 at 5:20 pm
I don’t think it would be much different. The premeditation would still stand. It still would be a significant departure from the Grinnell norm. It would probably be tempered somewhat but the intent is the key, I think.
Hoopsville listeners know D-mac is aware of where Smith is coaching this year.
December 11th, 2007 at 5:28 pm
What would DJD? I doubt he has time to read all of this.
December 11th, 2007 at 5:39 pm
I really did appreciate seeing the Grinnell coach voice his thoughts on this blog. That is pretty cool.
This situation of 34 assists was absurd!
Here is an equally absurd parallel.
Hopefully, this will never be seen in a basketball game:
So there is a Division 3 basketball team. We will call them Team G. Team G’s center had an off game last game and only had four blocks (he had been averaging 5.1). Luckily, a weak opponent is coming to town and the coach sees this as an opportunity to get the big guy feeling good again. The coach outlines a gameplan telling the other players on the team that this game is going to be played to win, but also to get the big guy feeling confident again (gotta get him his blocks in order for him to elevate his game). The game plan consists of resting the big guy for two minutes total, and when his team is playing defense, to allow the opposing team to drive in the lane so that the center can get his blocks per game up and hopefully set a single game block record.
Afterall, the big guy would love to hold a record. The coach thinks it is kind of cool too.
So the coach goes up to the other team’s coach before the game and says, “Look, we know you’re doing us a favor coming out here to get smoked by us, but our big fella needs to stay hungry. Our guards and forwards are going to let your guys run by us and they are going to force your guys into taking shots near the big fella. The center has been told to reject as many shots as physically possible in 38 minutes. It will probably be somewhere between 30 and 40 shots. After that our big guy should feel good. Just a heads up. That sound cool?”
That’s an equally absurd parallel.
December 11th, 2007 at 6:29 pm
That’s a bit more info, thanks, Pat.
But as the story goes, at least from the Arseneau’s, the plan wasn’t strictly to get the assists record from the beginning of the game. I thought I understood that the decision was made at half after he already had 14. That probably doesn’t change your opinion, but it does change the intent at some level - if nothing else it takes some of the shine off walzy’s parallel.
BTW, if d-mac knows where Smith is coaching, shouldn’t he brush up on how to spell the school’s (and city’s) name.
December 11th, 2007 at 7:04 pm
You spell Arseneault correctly and we’ll work on Dave’s spelling of Grinnell.
December 11th, 2007 at 8:14 pm
This is the 80th response to “I need an assist.” That’s 80 assists. You’ve got the record now, and as the game is well in hand, I think you should sit down and take a rest, and let the backups play for a while.
December 11th, 2007 at 8:24 pm
David - classic!
Very nice!
Sorry… added another. Am I pilling on or running up the score?
December 11th, 2007 at 8:58 pm
systemfan86 Says:
“December 11th, 2007 at 6:29 pm
But as the story goes, at least from the Arseneau’s, the plan wasn’t strictly to get the assists record from the beginning of the game. I thought [b]I understood that the decision was made at half after he already had 14.[/b]”
not according to this post
arseneau Says:
December 10th, 2007 at 1:33 am
“While I have set up a number of these game plans, I would never try to embarrass an opponent or opposing coach. As it relates to this past Saturday, anticipating that we may be the better team, I did confer with the North Central coach before the game.”
and later in that post
“Like it or not, the game plan was to let two players remain at the offensive end of the court and see what happened.”
sure sounds like it was predetermined that they would make a run at breaking the assist record well before the game to me…
December 11th, 2007 at 9:02 pm
My thought may be a little different than everyone else’s here…so I’m warning you now! lol. In the end, isn’t it the opponent’s job to stop the other team from recording any records against it? Aside from the two coaches, no one knows what was said, but if the North Central coach got any indication that Grinnell was going to attempt to set any sort of record against his team, wouldn’t he do anything in his power to prevent it? I would. I would also find it insulting if I found out before, during and to a lesser extent after the game. I went to a small D3 private college and for some reason, during my playing days (soccer), our school played D2 Parkside for several years running. If I overheard a Parkside player say he wanted to try to break the single-game goal-scoring record against us, I would do everything possible to stop that. So, if coach said he’s going for the assist record for his son, why not try to prevent that, no matter how bad your team is?
I guess the point of it all is that Coach A planned this knowing he was going up against an inferior team. Sure, that’s not real sportsmanlike, but neither is Lincoln’s idea of fun or the idiot coach that calls a timeout with 3 seconds left to set up a play so his player can get that last assist for his first ever triple double. It happens.
As much as I dislike Team A taking advantage of Team B’s level of competition (because I’ve been that Team B), it’s going to happen and it’s their job (or mine) to stop that from happening.
December 11th, 2007 at 10:47 pm
Amused that one particular commenter has been going to machines around his school — a non-Division III school at that — and has been attempting to stuff the ballot box.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:00 am
I would be questioning the stat taker in this case. Of course I didn’t seen the game (and most of you didn’t either), but from the descriptions of the game and the definition of an assist, it would raise a red flag to me as to whether the assists were being properly rewarded.
From the NCAA Basketball Statistician’s Manual (irrelevant portions removed):
“A player is credited with an assist when the player makes, in the judgment
of the statistician, the principal pass contributing directly to a field goal (or
an awarded score of two or three points). Only one assist is to be credited on
any field goal and only when the pass was a major part of the play.
“Such a pass should be either (a) a pass that finds a player free after he or she
has maneuvered without the ball for a positional advantage, or (b) a pass that
gives the receiving player a positional advantage he or she otherwise would
not have had.
“Philosophy. An assist should be more than a routine pass that just happens
to be followed by a field goal. It should be a conscious effort to find the open
player or to help a player work free.”
From a couple descriptions of the game, it appears that two players spent much of their time “cherry-picking” in the front court. Another report says some were handoffs. With these descriptions I would question whether all those passes were “a major part of the play” and whether they were “more than a routine pass that just happens to be followed by a field goal.” I’d like to hear from the SID or his stat taker on this one. My gut feeling tells me that an SID applying the rules likely wouldn’t have come up with 34 assists, but of course I didn’t see the game.
December 12th, 2007 at 6:51 am
Just Bill - very good point… something I have been thinking about as well.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:16 am
Just Bill,
Great catch! However, weren’t the stats Grinnell provided taken from their own bench? I highly doubt that whomever was taking the stats from the Grinnell bench was worried about the true definition of what an assist is. Especially considering the plan going into the game was to break the assist record.
Maybe someone from the NCAA who handles the record books should take a look at the game film and determine just how many of those 34 assists were within the guidelines of what an actual assist is and how many were just hand-offs as a result of the 2 of them (Arsenault and Grotberg) cherry-picking the entire game?
December 12th, 2007 at 11:31 am
The official stats should come from the SID (or a person assigned by the SID). Teams can track whatever they want on the bench, but the final numbers should be what the SID recorded.
Even if they were cherry-picking that doesn’t automatically negate an assist. If NCU got even one defender back and the pass was necessary to beat that defender then the scorer could legitimately award that assist. Assist are always tricky because they are inherently the scorer’s judgement call in a split second. I’m sure every SID believes there’s another SID they work with who’s “too hard” or “too soft” on assists.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:32 am
I think everyone is taking this way too far! If you don’t want a record broken on you, do not allow your opponent to break it! Conrats to Grinnell…I hope you and your team set many more records to come!
Happy Holidays!
December 12th, 2007 at 12:27 pm
I think that hand offs or quick flips should count as assists as long as the receipient of the hand off or flips goes directly into a shot. If he/she takes a dribble to better position his/herself, then not an assist. I say this because in order for this to be possible, the shooter has to set his defender up in order to get to the ball handler, plus the ball handler can act as a screener as well to get his teammate into a better position to shoot/score. It may be a step farther away from the basket, but the shooter is now open and better scoring position.
I’m sure many will disagree with this, and that is fine, but we had a play like this in our playbook. Both the ball handler and shooter have to set up their defenders in order for this to work, but if it works…open shots all day baby! I was the one getting the handoff or flip, so I can see giving the assist to the one giving me the ball.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:14 pm
Pioneer - in your description… I would have handed out assists. Both players were finding ways to get the man open and assist in getting a shot.
However, your description has one thing in it that it seems Grinnell didn’t have to deal with: defenders.
From the descriptions we have had from Coach A and others… the two Grinnell players were in the offensive side of the court for most of the game. I doubt defenders were running down the court to stop them on long outlet passes; especially as the game wore on!
December 12th, 2007 at 4:03 pm
d-mac - valid point. I’m sure that NCUM was going to take advantage as much as they could with the 5 on 3, but not every shot goes in or comes right to one of the three guys playing defense, which would lead me to believe there had to be some, maybe a little, but some defense when Grinnell was popping 3’s. Here’s a question, if a player gets a steal and dribbles the length of the court sees’ that there is no defenders, but has the big man runnin with him, and with a 2 on 0 break, turns hands the ball to the big man who immediately jumps and slams it home, is that considered an assist? Pretty much the same thing, no defense, nothing done to get open, but a pass that leads directly to a bucket.
I don’t agree with the way the record was achieved, but I also don’t know why they NCUM didn’t just match up man to man where ever Grinnell was playing.
December 12th, 2007 at 5:21 pm
Pioneer Hoops Fan,
I would say that would be based on interpretation as far as the fast break goes. I would look at it as the two players broke free from the rest of the defenders with the big man doing it without the ball. In that sense they were doing it within the rules and the passer should be given the assist.
If you look at it as though nobody else was going down the floor to even contest the shot then you can interpret it as though he didn’t gain any kind of favorable position just by being open for the dunk and by rule the player passing the ball most likely shouldn’t be given an assist.
As Just Bill stated the manual says it’s “in the judgment of the statistician”.
December 12th, 2007 at 6:03 pm
dballa,
I agree with you and have read the rules posted before, it is tough because that is the way the rule stated. It is different than say a two or three point basket which is clearly defined, but knowing the situation that we are conversing about and how the record was set, I think that we are quick to judge what constitutes an assist based on the rule book, whereas in the example I gave we may be more likely to credit an assist because there isn’t any question about it to start with. Regardless if there were defenders getting back on the break.
I’m sure I’m(we’re) getting off topic a bit, and I will state that I don’t agree with they way the record was broken, or the Grinnell system to begin with, but that is their perogative. I’m just tryin to give a little spin on it.
December 12th, 2007 at 7:22 pm
it doesn’t matter what system the team is running or if the official scorer interpretted the assist rule accurately…the crux is this: a coach intentionally devised a game plan to set an individual record against an inferior opponent - going to the point of discussing this game plan with the opposing coach, players on his team and who knows who else (given the coverage on the grinnell website and the nature of small college athletics, it’s not unlikely that folks in the crowd, administrators and maybe even the official scorer knew that one of the goals that evening was to break the assists record) - and he seems to think that he exhibited good sportsmanship
i just think that line of thinking is a bit twisted and if i were a student, staff member or administrator at grinnell, i would not be proud of how this went down, and i certainly wouldn’t be proud that it was being glorified on the college home page (not even the athletic home page, mind you) - sportsmanship is, in large part, respecting your opponent - i don’t see how it is respectful to rub salt in a wound (a 39 point blowout) by glorifying an individual record set by a kid who played almost double the minutes he plays in a normal game and deploying a tactic that would almost certainly NEVER be used in a game that mattered or that was close (allowing 2 players to stay on the offensive side of the court for large portions of the game)
December 12th, 2007 at 7:51 pm
It seems to me that Coach A is facing a trade-off between being unsportsmanlike and losing. He recruits more talented athletes than his predecessors on the agreement that they will have an opportunity to set individual records. To continue getting better recruits, he must deliver on his promises when the opportunities arise, which may often come against weaker teams.
Is it better to lose or to be a poor sport? Maybe it’s the fault of the Grinnell Athletic Department for valuing winning over integrity.
December 12th, 2007 at 7:55 pm
As an SID, I have to say that IF (and that’s a big IF since I didn’t see the game) assists were given to Arsenault after receiving an outlet pass when he and another player where completely alone on the offensive end, this record needs to come under serious scrutiny from the NCAA. There is definitely room for judgment in the statistician’s manual, but the statisticians’ manual has a very specific example that basically states in such a case, the player throwing the OUTLET pass should get the assist if there is one awarded. (Yes, that’s right, the manual says that a player can be given an assist even if he or she did not make the last pass.) Scenario A in the following example covers this pretty definitively:
Example AR 10
“After taking a rebound off the defensive board, Adams passes
quickly to Allen at the division (i.e., mid-court) line. (a) Allen is open but
passes to Adler, who scores an uncontested layup; (b) Allen is open but
passes back to Adams, who had broken to the basket immediately after the
first pass and receives Allen’s pass to score the uncontested layup; (c) Allen is
covered and passes to Adler, who scores an uncontested layup; or (d) Allen
is covered, passes to Adler, who returns the ball to Allen, who then scores
having lost his or her defensive man after the pass to Adler. RULING: In (a),
credit Adams with an assist. In (b) and (c), credit Allen with an assist. In (d),
credit Adler with an assist.
Scenario B is addressing a fast-break situation where the scorer is breaking to the basket on the outlet (rather than already being unguarded on the offensive end). Scenario A covers the “two man cherry pick” situation that has been discussed here.
December 12th, 2007 at 7:59 pm
I just wanted to add that I’m in no way taking a side in the “ethical” debate here of purposefully trying to set a record in a one-sided game - just providing the text that the manual covers the “two man cherry pick” pretty explicitly.
Again, I’m definitely not in a position to say that numerous assists were credited under the above scenario, but IF they were, they were done so incorrectly.
December 13th, 2007 at 2:35 am
I was actually at the game. There was indeed someone assigned to record the stats that is not on the team, just to clear that up. Also, I have to say I have a lot of respect for the players on the other team: they played hard even though they knew they weren’t going to win, and did some stuff far more ridiculous than Grinnell (one of their players took and mad a shot over his back when he was on a breakaway, which they had many more of than Grinnell due to the way we were playing).
Also, I must inform you that most of the assists were not on breakaways. In fact, the whole keeping people just on offense strategy seemed to fall apart, and usually resulted in either Keith Chamberlain making some insane shot through 3 defenders or making a layup/dunk just as a defender reached him or John Grotbeg shooting a three. There were a couple “handoff” plays, but there always are, so it wasn’t anything out of the norm.
Finally, Grinnell was pretty much playing a slowed down offense. Whenever we were on offense, we took the time to pass the ball to David, and because the other team knew he was going for the record, they were definitely trying to stop him, which led to a lot of passing around before shooting. Imagine if he had not been going for the record: instead of having a tired, always passing David Arsenault we would have had a bunch of fresh players shooting AND passing, and while David might not have had as many assists, we certainly would have had a lot more points.
Finally, David is always leading the league in assists, so if anyone were to break it in the course of a normal game, it would be him.
Anyway, I don’t think I will ever in my life see a more ridiculous game of basketball played in my life. Both teams were dunking all over the place, making crazy plays, and playing their hearts out. Our fans were cheering as much for the other team as they were for Grinnell, and despite the lopsided loss I hope they had as good of a time playing as we did watching.
There’s a lot more I could say, but I’ll close with the following: check out a Grinnell game! Say what you will about the system, but I have never had more fun in my life watching a team play basketball than I do while watching Grinnell, and aren’t the fans what it’s really all about?
December 13th, 2007 at 8:50 am
I think you all need to understand a little more about how “the system” works. Grinnell has played with this two-man cherry pick for years… but it’s hardly noticable because they press every possession (at least in the first half). That leaves the floor spread with the two cherry pickers back. Back in 1997 when Jeff Clement broke the three pointers made per game record (19-52 from three point range, 77 points) Grinnell employed the same gameplan in a conference game. This isn’t just some wild hair-brained scheme to get records, this is how Grinnell wins basketball games. It allows them to spread the floor and find their best shooters on a repeated basis. Those of who who think this is a bastardization of basketball need to realize that teams haven’t found a good way to stop it. I can remember Illinois College actually guarding Clement while they had the basketball because they were so worried that he would score… but simply because this isn’t what you’re used to doesn’t mean that we don’t hand out assists to a player that clearly achieved through the system in place.
Grinnell forced 34 turnovers to only 10 of their own. Grinnell had 45 offensive rebounds. This sounds like a situation where Grinnell had 40 +-5 shots after missed shots. These might have been run through Arseneault. (WITH DEFENSE unless NCU was so slow that they gave up offensive rebounds AND another shot before they decided to run 90 feet.)
Grinnell hit 23 three pointers, most of which I am guessing came from Arseneault passes. The pass led directly to a shot, by definition an assist. Having watched the cherry-picker game before, as I previously stated, I am guessing NCU was back on defense because their whole offense wouldn’t have had time to run down the floor by the time they had already scored off the press.
The great thing about basketball is that it is a creative sport and that there are so many ways to play it. NCU could have held the ball for 35 seconds each possession if they were played 3 on 5. But they didn’t, and now we’re talking about it.
December 13th, 2007 at 9:16 am
1979sia -
Let’s be clear on one point, no one attends a school like Grinnell just to play basketball. If they did, they wouldn’t be there for long.
Grinnell is an academics-first school that is rated as one of the top small liberal arts schools in the nation. So when they are recruiting players, they might discuss records, but they have to sell the academic benefits first. If the player can’t hack the school work, I doubt they are even admitted.
Grinnell will likely never win (nor compete) for a D3 championship. Not sure that’s the goal. They want to be competitive, wins as often as possible, and have a good time doing it. ‘The system’ has essentially provided this for the school. Yes, there are times when the numbers are emphasized, but that’s not necessarily inconsistent; conceptually, ‘the system’ is predicated on an analysis that indicates that if you meet five statistical goals, you will most likely win. So it shouldn’t be a surprise that numbers are important.
I’ve stated that I find the record a bit hard to celebrate given the situation surrounding it. But I think there has been a great deal of supposition in this discussion by people who weren’t at the game, and I’d be concerned that those suppositions are coloring people’s opinions.
December 13th, 2007 at 9:39 am
old man,
I’ve seen the system before, run by a different team. I, in no way intended to bash it - I actually find it pretty interesting. I understand both sides of the sportsmanship argument here, but what I can’t understand is the hate directed at the system itself. If you don’t think it’s a good basketball strategy, fine. That doesn’t mean no one should run it. If a strategy does not work for a given team, eventually it will be abandoned.
I stayed quiet on this issue until the statisticians’ manual was brought up. The purpose of my post is to point out that the manual covers a scenario in which two players are alone at the offensive end of the court and one receives an outlet pass and then passes to the other player on the offensive end. In such a case, the assist should actually go to the guy throwing the outlet pass and not the receiver of the outlet pass (who then passes to the other unguarded player already at the offensive end).
After reading through the play-by-play of the game, I found a couple spots where this may or may not have happened (mostly following defensive rebounds off North Central misses), but not enough to change the fact that the record was broken, so my post is fairly moot when applied to this instance.
In general, however, the spirit of the statisticians’ manual is that the stats should not reflect a contrived (beyond a reasonable doubt) effort to achieve certain numbers. A deiiberate, planned effort is fine. That’s up to the other team to try to stop from happening - and is, after further review, what is most likely to have happened here.
A contrived effort, no. This is also why if a player purposefully throws the ball off the backboard twice all alone on the offensive end and then scores, the manual instructs that he or she is to be credited with one field goal attempt and one field goal made and not three attempts, one make, and two offensive rebounds.
December 13th, 2007 at 10:53 am
I agree with you wacsid. The time that women’s college team let the girl with a broken leg score a basket to start the game so that she could break a scoring record… that was totally out of line and shouldn’t count. It marrs the record of the people before who achieved within their system of play… because it was manufactured out of the realm of something that could happen in a regular game. What we’re looking at here isn’t some “contrived record,” it’s what really should be regarded as a statistical anomoly (outlier anyone?) brought about by the system of play.
December 13th, 2007 at 11:40 am
The problem with the “broken leg” basket was that, when it comes to scoring, if the points are awarded by the official, you have to credit someone with scoring them. The statisticians’ and recordkeepers’ hands are pretty tied when it comes to points scored and baskets made.
Anomalies are probably the best way to put a lot of the numbers produced when Grinnell plays (when compared to the average college basketball game). It seems offensive anomalies are what really catch people’s attention (both good and bad) - every year there are teams near the top of the pack in scoring defense whose slow-down style on offense has as much or more to do with their opponents not scoring as their actual defense does.
As a stats guy, I’ll say that stats in basketball can tell a good chunk of the story (though not all of it). Some of our traditional measures of ranking offense and defense, however, don’t take into account things like, pace, points per possession, etc. Just as Grinnell isn’t as effective offensively as their scoring average would indicate, they certainly aren’t as bad defensively as their opponents’ scoring average would indicate either. It’s in extreme cases like Grinnell where the shortcomings of traditional statistics are really brought to light.
December 14th, 2007 at 1:40 pm
“old man Says:
December 13th, 2007 at 10:53 am What we’re looking at here isn’t some “contrived record,” it’s what really should be regarded as a statistical anomoly (outlier anyone?) brought about by the system of play.”
i disagree completely…a “contrived record” is EXACTLY what this is - see the definition of contrived below and then see the comments from coach arsenault regarding their game plan and goals for this game
“con·trived (kn-trvd) adj. Obviously planned or calculated; not spontaneous or natural; labored:”
December 14th, 2007 at 5:34 pm
OK … I could get into this argument, but I’ve already determined people are going to believe what they wish to believe and nothing I say will change that.
What I can tell you, after witnessing the game, is David several times penetrated, drew the defender and wisely popped the ball out to a man for the 3-point shot. Early on the shots weren’t falling, either, so 34 assists could have been 40. And, as mentioned, he did what a point guard is supposed to do … distribute the ball. When you score 151 points, there are bound to be a few assists, aren’t there?
And as he humbly mentioned, the pressure wasn’t on him but instead on the shooters as their shots had to fall (which they eventually did) since they had to make the shots.
Also note that David scored 22 points … uh, pretty balanced effort on his part, I’d say. A little more than just a guy who can pass the ball, huh?
And anyone bashing the system also needs to know that this is a team that would be winning a lot of games playing any style. They’re probably one of the more talented Grinnell teams in quite some time.
OK, so now you can all have your shot at me … conjure up the spirits of James Naismith and the peach basket and everything. But, I’ve spoken my peace.
December 14th, 2007 at 10:07 pm
whatzthefuss - clearly you’re a fan of the system and you think that all of david arsenault’s assists were legit…what are your thoughts about the subject at hand…the fact that the coach intentionally game planned to set an individual record against an inferior team - do you feel that’s a sportsmanlike thing to do? are you as proud of the coach as you are the player?
December 16th, 2007 at 4:27 pm
monarchfan? From Denison, by chance?
Anyway, I appreciate the fact that you offer me questions and chance for comment without attacking my reasoning.
Here’s a scenario I’d like to offer, and tell me if it is similar … not being a smart-aleck, but just wondering:
I’m running the 3200-meter run at an indoor track meet. On a 200-meter indoor track, and me being a pretty good runner, I’m going to lap a lot of people in the process.
Anyway, I know the school record for the 3200 is 9:31 and also know I’m capable of breaking it. Anyway, as my splits are adding up and I’m cruising around the track with no competition, I realize the school record is not only possible, but will be broken without a problem.
So, my thoughts (as my coach yells to me) are to go for the state indoor record of 9:12 … I continue to push myself, lap by lap, lapping guys all the time. The splits are in place and it looks like my day … with one lap to go I’m on pace to barely beat the state record.
At this point do I:
A) Think about all these poor people I’m passing and say, “No, I don’t deserve the record … I’m going to start walking” and therefore preserve the state indoor record.
B) I’m not only going to get the record, I’m going to SHATTER it by running this last lap in my fastest split of the day … if it works out, I’ll run 9:06!!
Any thoughts?
December 16th, 2007 at 5:10 pm
I think it doesn’t work in an individual event.
December 17th, 2007 at 8:17 am
whatzthefuss - i’m not from denison, but there are only 2 d3 teams nicknamed the monarchs (and 3 ncaa teams nationally…and denison isn’t one of them), so you’ve got a 50/50 chance…hint: i’m south of the mason-dixon line
as pat coleman says, your illustration simply doesn’t work - it’s an individual sport in which breaking personal, school, conference and national records is the norm, expected and encouraged
find me another example in a team sport in which the coach says going in “we’re going to win this game handily, so to motivate you guys and make this fun, let’s see if we can break some individual records” and i’ll tell you i disagree with THAT example, as well
December 17th, 2007 at 9:07 am
Here’s an example monarchfan:
Baseball team A is playing against baseball team B.
Team A is winning 20-0 in the third inning. Their pitcher is throwing a perfect game. It is the last game before a long layoff for the team and the pitcher needs to get his work in. Do you:
a) remove pitcher A because he is dominating this team
b) require the opposition to simply hit the pitcher
c) ask the pitcher to toss up a couple of beach balls
Same situation: you are a batter. Do you
a) strike out on purpose, making the game go faster?
b) continue to take good at bats, in order to keep up your batting average?
I can tell you 100% with confidence that in the baseball example (a team sport) that coaches will not tell their players to stop pitching or hitting. It is up to the opposition to get people out. Teams don’t pinch hit for someone that is 5-5 with 5 home runs. They let him hit again… regardless of score. Teams don’t substitute for a pitcher with a no-hitter.
December 17th, 2007 at 10:09 am
Interesting scenario but not reflective of the case at hand. Remember the quotes say this was premeditated, before the game started.
So Team A is scheduled to play Team B. Team A decides to start its No. 1 starter, even though it knows Team B is overmatched, with the express intent of him attempting to throw a perfect game. That’s the situation.
December 17th, 2007 at 10:19 am
Alumni says: “So Team A is scheduled to play Team B. Team A decides to start its No. 1 starter, even though it knows Team B is overmatched, with the express intent of him attempting to throw a perfect game. That’s the situation.”
My point, alumni, is that this happens all the time in college baseball. The point being that throwing a perfect game, no-hitter, etc is about roughly equal to getting 34 assists. It’s so hard to do that premeditating it hardly guarantees or even means it’s possible.
December 17th, 2007 at 11:05 am
Is that true? Because nobody had ever had 34 assists, or even 27 before this game. I’m certain someone has thrown a perfect game before now.
Still not really relevant. After all, in baseball, there’s one position where there’s a rotation and a pecking order of players who start, and when one starts, generally others in the rotation don’t play.
December 17th, 2007 at 2:16 pm
OK … so the argument against what I said a few posts back is that it’s an individual event so you don’t hold it to the same standards.
What if I’m running the 4×800 relay (not an individual event … four teammates working together) and before the race we get together and say, “Let’s not only bury the competition, but break the state record in the process”?
Team event … pre-meditated … seems to meet the criteria, doesn’t it?
December 17th, 2007 at 2:30 pm
oldman - i would say that if team a throws their #1 against an obviously inferior team and leaves him in pitching a no-no, i would be very critical of that coach - if that coach left his #1 in the ball game up 20-0, i would be EQUALLY critical of that coach
a few years back, methodist played st. paul’s college out of virginia in baseball - despite being a d2, st. paul’s has a HORRIBLE baseball team, but there is some connection between the coaches at mu and spc, so the game was played - the monarchs started a frosh who made a grand total of 3 appearances that year (9 ip total) and he had a no-hitter with 12 strikeouts and 1 walk through 5 innings with the monarchs up 12-0…and was pulled - the monarchs also stopped taking more than one base at a time in the 5th inning - two other freshman finished up the no-hitter with one inning each - the 3 pitchers that pitched that day combined for a total of 16.2 innings on the season and almost half came that day - every healthy position player got an at bat, and even some pitchers hit that day - that’s how you handle a game against an obviously inferior team…you don’t set out at the onset to establish or break individual records
there was also great discussion on the d3baseball boards last year regarding a 57-1 baseball victory, and had i been registered with the blog at that time, i would have chimed in, although i think